Predator vertical shaft 5.5hp clone engine

This is older version, guessing not long after Harbor Freight transitioned from the blue "Greyhound" clone engines to the black Predator engines.

Anyway I use it on my smaller ancient Yazoo (from 1950s I think). I used to have a Greyhound, but it got hard to start. It in turn replaced a Briggs. Anyway this Predator always starts pretty easy cold, but always been impossible to start hot. So usually after running a tank gas through it, I really didnt want to mow anymore anyway. But ran across mention online that it could be magneto coil (I suspect actually ignition module molded into the coil) but yesterday swapped magneto coil off the old Greyhound. Fine started ok and ran ok. Wouldnt restart hot. So other possible cause is maybe too tight lash on valves, it is an OHV engine so not as big of a deal as the old flathead engines to adjust them. But couldnt find my feeler gauge. Been long time since used it. Ordered a new one and its on its way.

However this morning was wondering if there was a makedo substitute. I mean in old days you used matchbook cover to gap points. And just yesterday swapping coils I gapped it with business card.

Well there is, apparently the wall of modern pop can is 0.0047 inch. Valve lash on this engine has to be between 0.003 and 0.005 inch. So should work. I dont drink anything out of an aluminum can so will have to see if I can find discarded can, may have one, my former neighbor that shared my access road used to throw out his empties (beer) so he didnt forget and get caught with open container in his car. Worth a shot. If its not too tight valve lash, then dont really know what it could be. It does loose bit power when hot so yea valve lash makes sense. It has a new spark plug so not that.

Slowly but surely, also piecing together the bigger 24inch Yazoo. It uses a horizontal shaft engine. Not self propelled and bit on heavy side... Had lot better luck with horizontal shaft clone engines and its 212cc vs 170 for vertical shaft. Also cast iron flywheel and you get idea. Though also was looking what it would take to convert an old aluminum deck Craftsman to use horizontal shaft engine. It would be very light, much like friends old Kee commercial duty mower from 60s I think. I loved that Kee, but rare as hens teeth around here. It was from back when Kee was small regional builder of mowers out of Florida. Has pic of palm tree cast into the aluminum deck. They eventually merged with Yazoo and then bought by Ariens. And maybe now Ariens bought by somebody else, havent kept up with who owns who anymore in mower market. I know Ariens owned Gravely too.

I did look at youtube video of some guy adjusting the valves on clone engine on I think Cub Cadet push mower. Thats where got the specs. And have watched some guy bring a dead Kohler clone engine back to life. So these guys dont have problems starting cold or hot. I shouldnt with the Predator. Though swear I have had lot more hassles with the clone vertical shaft mower engines than I have with the clone horizontal shaft engines. No reason for this, seeing how the vintage Honda GXV160 engines were trouble free, some last 20 to 30 years. Now actual GXV160 getting rare and expensive, Honda mostly uses their GXC or GXS engines. OHC with internal timing belt. No idea why, guess cheaper to make. I mean the older genuine GXV engines were pretty bulletproof. Maybe they lasted too long..... I did find youtube showing replacement of the $10 timing belt on GXC engine. Guessing if you are going for longevity of the GXV, want to do this as part of regular maintenance, least every ten years???

Oh one thing truly wonderful on the current Kohler 170cc vertical shaft clone. It has A BOTTOM DRAIN PLUG for oil. This is a rarity on modern mower engines. And tipping regular push mower on its side to drain oil out of filler tube not too big of a deal. But on my Yazoo, it sets up higher since its belt driven to a deck spindle. This is not a simple turn on its side since its heavy and the large rear wheel on that side is in way. I had to unbolt the engine to change oil this spring. Not a happy event. So may go back to the older Greyhound engine and try to diagnose its problems, it had drain plug on side of base which worked out ok.

But guess unbolting engine once a year not HUGE hassle, just an annoying one. Company saved 5cents and just frankly stupid. I would try removing rear wheel on that side, but suspect mower frame still in way.

No luck from adjusting valves way first youtube guy did it.  He had his own shortcut.  Only way I could get mower to stay running was to loosen further half turn on each lash adjuster.  Then it wouldnt restart hot.

Ok, different video and adjusting valves by the book.  Which actually made more sense to me than way other guy did it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O8nseGCrbTg

So re-lashed the valves using this method and using the bit of beer can as feeler gauge.  Put it back together.  Started up, sputtered, backfired, and died.  Ok I had swapped coil yesterday with one from older clone, so put original coil back.  Started and stayed running.  Its wet so couldnt do lot mowing, but mowed down and back path.  Stopped engine.  Before it wouldnt restart even after this little bit of use.  This time one pull and it started, so mowed down and back again and stopped it.  Again restarted one pull.  Fine think its fixed.  Noticed its slightly harder to start cold, but can live with that.  I cant even remember how long I have used this engine now.  Like say it never restarted hot, not from when it was brand spankin new.  Its just my energy level such that after one tank gas, I didnt want to mow any more anyway.  So never bothered diagnosing it.

Hmm, guess not only diagnosed this engine but the older Greyhound that this one replaced.  Have to try it with new coil sometime.  No doubt it could use checkover of valve lash too.

Ok, it starts easily enough cold today. MOwed a few laps until tank empty. Ran great until tank empty, and it was tall grass. Filled tank, nope, no start. I get that new set feeler gauges, will set intake to 0.006 and exhaust to 0.008. Thats max suggested in Predator manual. If it wont start hot like that, it just wont start hot.

Ok, went back out half hour later.  With a FEW pulls it started.  Finished the mowing.  Still had gas in tank.  Turned it off.  Pulled, no restart.  

I did look for lash specs for the Kohler version of this engine.  Intake = 0.005  Exhaust = 0.007.  So yea guessing its the exhaust valve lash that is getting too tight after engine gets really hot.  These vertical shaft clones seem to be really picky on lash.  I suspect genuine Honda is too, but it gets properly set out of factory.

Ok genuine Honda GXV160 is Intake = 0.006 and Exhaust = 0.008   This plus or minus 0.001

Waiting for feeler gauge, I got antsy and wondered about old genuine Honda GCV160 I had. Enough water under the bridge I had forgotten all details of it. Had long ago bought it used and put it on a mower that shot clippings (and sticks and rocks) out the back so if one didnt have grass catcher on.... OUCH. I had used it for a while, then one day mowing with it, engine running, no cutting grass. Found blade few feet behind me. Bolt holding blade in blade holder thingie had broke off in the end of crankshaft. I had also forgotten dang rope was hard to pull and cord had broken so I shortened it. Then it kicked back at some point and broke the hard plastic handle. I covered the engine it must set 10 years now.

So got it out and installed it on the Yazoo in place of the Predator. I can get away with this cause it has a keyed shaft so can put pulley on the shaft rather than bolting on a blade. Getting out remains of that broken off bolt in crankshaft no doubt exercise in futility, time and money wise just buy another engine rather than that. The Yazoo has belt driven deck spindle, not blade on crankshaft like most push mowers.

Of course more parts. I ordered some Stens True Blue heavy duty pull cord. I got #4 cause thats what old cord was, but might want #5 on most mowers. #4 is more for chainsaws and trimmers. Also found an Oregon version of the old hard rubber handle Briggs used to use on the old flatheads, has a steel pin you tie rope around and that give stiffness. These were IMHO bigger and better handle than little hard plastic ones they use now. Also ordered pulley after being stupid and bending one on the Predator. I tried gear puller directly on pulley rather than hunting up my little tool that fits behind pulley hub and takes all the stress. The GCV160 also has 1 inch diameter shaft rather than 7/8 common on mower engines. So couldnt used the 7/8 pulley anyway.

So get that stuff couple days ago and install pulley and belt, all properly tensioned. Got rope yesterday. Takes 54 inch length by way if you have handle retracted to starter on engine. You need 7ft rope if it needs to go up handle like on modern mower.

Ok, I had adjusted valves on this engine just to be sure, I remember it being hard to pull cord. Valve adjustment must been its problem as it pulled ok with new rope (the shorty rope really not usable), and would cough then finally ran couple seconds before dying. These GCV160 use plastic cam sprocket which contains the compression release so they can be bad too and cause hard pulling and kickback. Swapped spark plug with same result, only run few seconds. Took off float bowl and sprayed some carb cleaner up the main jet. Sometimes this works and you dont have to pull carb off the engine. Put float bowl back. Ok, now it ran. Lean until I reinstalled air filter. And running FAST. Too fast IMHO. ok seems the throttle plate shaft was corroded in place full open, so have to take carb off after all. Easily freed up and after making couple new gaskets.... Honda really made quite the sandwich of gaskets, spacers, plates all held together with same two bolts holding air cleaner and carb to engine. Started much easier, one pull. Ran. I mowed some. But engine rpm too fast. This engine is the modern single speed setup with no throttle cable or lever.

Been looking on youtube. First need to check governor shaft is set correctly as seems its common for people to try to play with governor to get more power on these engines. Once governor is set properly, then can adjust running speed by bending foot on the governor lever. The top of lever has rod going to throttle on carb, the bottom has a tensioning spring. If this were an adjustable throttle the throttle cable would change tension on that bottom spring via another little lever assembly. so to lower rpm, you bend bottom of this governor lever to loosen the spring a bit and to increase rpm you bend it to tighten tension on the spring. Doesnt take much bending to change speed quite a bit apparently. Still feels bit mickey mouse to have to physically bend something to make adjustments, but suppose like carburetors are no longer adjustable (still adjustable on higher end mowers), neither is throttle speed setting.

Anyway I get engine speed set, think this will be the small Yazoo's engine for a while. With that blade bolt broken off in crankshaft and light weight flywheel used on mower engines, not lot other applications for this engine. And does seem to otherwise be in pretty good mechanical condition with lot hours left in it.

I spent time resurrecting the GCV160 cause it is a genuine Honda and I had watched some youtube videos showing it starting easy hot or cold and people saying though it is Hondas consumer model small engine line (the GX and GXV are commercial duty) that it still lasted very well. Oh when I adjusted valves on it, very clean inside. It does have lot more plastic and less robust parts than the GXV. I suspect if one does maintenance (which most people dont seem to do on small engines) then it last ten to fifteen years. The old genuine GXV120/140/160 would last upto 30 years, maybe more.

Oh spent good bit of the day futzing with the GCV160 on the small Yazoo. I adjusted the governor spring tension to lower governed speed. Wouldnt start. Couldnt see how that would keep it from starting. After going through literally everything, it will still just sputter a bit with shot starting fluid. Ok, took carb off and cleaned it to within an inch of its life. Put it back on and it ran, though on lean side. Better after reinstalling the air cleaner and filter. But still bit of a surge until really warmed up. I have it the perfect engine speed for me. Engine is relatively quiet but cuts the grass and doesnt stall in thicker stuff. Pretty much like I have the Murray adjusted. Oh when sun came out and I shut down engine, wheeled mower back to tub I cover it with. Tried starting it hot before covering it. Yep, one pull and zoom, zoom, zoom.

If I replace carb sometime, will do like I did with the Briggs on the Murray and adapt an older adjustable Tecumseh carb. That is worth so much to be able to tune it with a screwdriver.

Okie dokie, started new thread for the GCV160 so back on track with the Predator.  Today bolted Predator down to an old mower deck without wheels, just to anchor it to play a bit.  Minus the plastic facade and minus blade.

Replaced coil/module with that new $6 one off ebay that came on slow boat from China.  Yea thats shipped price, go figure. I couldnt mail that coil across the county for $6 let alone buy it and ship it half way around the world.  Nice fat spark when I pulled cord so sprayed bit starting fluid and bada bing, bada boom, its running.  Little rough until it warmed up but this isnt original carb, one I was experimenting with before I took Predator off the Yazoo.  Let it run for long while, stopping it every once in a while and restarting it.  Even hot, one pull start.

Ok, kinda anti-climactic as this was mentioned in several online articles of possible cause of mower not restarting when hot.  But hey had to wait for the slow boat to be absolutely sure since spare coil I had was faulty too, well probably the module molded into it, I suspect rare actual coil is bad..   I take it these older clone engines had batch crap coil cause this Predator has been hard or impossible to restart hot since I have had it.  And that spare coil same difference.  The older Greyhound vertical shaft engines same way.  Never had the problem with the horizontal shaft clone engines.  ????

Still blown away with the Predator 5.5hp becoming a one-pull start engine, hot or cold.  I have couple spare mower clone engines.  One an older Kohler XT and one an even older Greyhound from Harbor Freight, remember the blue engines they used to sell?  Neither of these easy starters though both had good compression.

Just ordered a used cast iron flywheel and plastic fan on Ebay for $19 shipped.   Anyway going to try to bring one of the others to life and whether it will also be easy starter.  Cast iron flywheel means I dont need blade on it to avoid kickback.  I could just take the Predator apart and use parts off it, but it is currently working so amazing, I really dont want to change anything on it right now.  After three or four years of it working but being sort of PITA and not restarting hot, its current working state really is amazing.

Now you go to HF website and read reviews for current Predator 5.5 vertical shaft mower engine and few seem to have the problems I did. In general people state out of box its easy starter.  Those with problems tended to just lost on luck of draw and got faulty factory engine.  China stuff not known for great quality control.  But you get a good one new out of box, it will tend to last ok.

I still dont know why all engines dont come with cast iron flywheel.  Yea on mowers where blade is on end crankshaft, blade spinning acts as defacto heavy flywheel.  But using an engine with a cast iron flywheel on a mower doesnt change anything.  So why make aluminum flywheels?  Are they really cheaper to manufacture?  Or is it more they dont want people repurposing mower engines for other things?  You still can, just use like six inch disk of quarter inch steel plate.  Or go to TSC and get hub that fits shaft and buy a six inch chain sprocket that you weld to that hub.  It will add necessary weight and less chance of it being unbalanced than homemade steel disk.  First though make sure you cant just buy a cast iron flywheel that fits that engine.  Vertical shaft engines anymore used for lot more than push mower so usually versions with cast iron flywheel.  Well at least the higher end ones.  Engines designed only to be cheapest possible push mower engine with lot internal plastic components probably not used for anything else.

Been playing with the Kohler yesterday and today. Wow, it would sputter a bit but wouldnt start. Felt like ignition timing was off, but should be same, right? Well finally started looking at flywheel keyways and where magnets were in relation to the coil when engine is top dead center.

Sure enough the keyway in the crank is different on the Kohler and the Greyhound compared to the Predator and an old Greyhound horizontal shaft engine I looked at. So I will check yet one more time tomorrow and then cut new slot in taper on the end of crankshaft on the Kohler. I did try removing key altogether and just really torquing the nut down. This allowed Kohler to start but it quickly died as flywheel turned on the crankshaft throwing it back out of time. The Greyhound clone is identical to this older Kohler clone. I think the later versions of Kohler clones are like the Predator, but I dont have one to test my theory.

Still so sweet for the Predator turning from PITA to engine that starts on one pull.

I am guessing EPA has bee in their bonnet about lawn mower engines since there is no real economic way to computerize and EFI them. This ignition timing thing may been on lawn mower engines only at one time. I think now EPA is pushing electric lawn mowers. Price has really zoomed on the gas ones. Even cheapest new gas lawn mower is pushing $200. And you really dont want the monstrosities under $200. Better to put your $200 towards a new higher quality engine to repower your old mower.

Well I couldnt find dang dremel so cut partial slot in end crank with angle grinder and cutting blade, couldnt go furthr down as diameter of cutting blade means it would cut into the engine block itself. So with partial new slot, made a wedge shape key. It ran about minute and stopped. Yea, not enough contact areas, it sheared the homemade key. More to prove something to myself as I dont really need Predator or the Kohler or the Greyhound at moment. I will make full length slot when I find my dremel.

But I was super curious when replacing coil on Predator made it one pull start when it had never been one pull start. So wanted to see if same for the other two. Yep. Well didnt try the Greyhound, but its identical to this early Kohler XT. The cast iron flywheel I used is off a newer Kohler XT, same vertical shaft engine, but they now put the keyway same on engines with aluminum or cast iron flywheels.

I dragged mig out of the storage shed and finally welded up adapter to use that Briggs muffler on the Predator. Just couple large flat washers and short piece pipe. Holes made to clock muffler so it stands vertical. I ran Predator after installing it. Its ok, not super silent by any means but it is better than leaky muffler or no muffler. About what you would expect lawn mower to sound. I only did this, first to see if it would work and second cause the muffler was used but not rusty. Its aluminized at factory and obviously outlasted the 6hp Briggs it originally came on. Lot of these so guessing not most robust Briggs engine out there.

Would I buy another... well if it were in good shape and under $10. For the quality of it and it being under $10, doubt you could beat it. Now I did move it out a bit from cylinder head. The original mufflers on these engine hug the cylinder head and just use large exhaust gasket as a heat shield. Not greatest design though sure they mostly did it to keep mower engine as compact as possible. the genuine Hondas this worked ok. The horizontal shaft Honda GX160 muffler lot better design.

I cant keep up with price rises on ebay. The Briggs used mufflers like one I used now up enough in price its not really worth adapting, especially since they are an odd shape. I still need two mufflers for the other two clone engines. Found a pristine one off an old Honda GXV120 for $10. Should bolt up, but not sure about size of exhaust passage, 120cc is lot smaller engine compared to most lawn mower engines, well except the el cheapo Briggs 125cc used on cheapest crappiest mowers. Anyway the muffler itself is Japanese and bulletproof if not left setting exposed to weather, just depend if it can handle 173cc engine.

Oh and found really clean GCV160 muffler for $13. Genuine Honda, not as quiet as the mufflers on the GXV160 but ok, certainly no louder than the BRiggs muffler. Its clocked wrong for the GXV160 engines, but again I would just weld an adapter anyway. To make it orient direction I want plus get it out away from the head. I dont like using huge exhaust gasket as heat shield so muffler can bolt directly to the head. Honda did that to make engine as compact as possible for lawn mowers and they of course made it work reliably. Still poor engineering IMHO. They did it right on the horizontal shaft GX160.

On clones of GXV160, cheaper gasket so it fails plus the mufflers rust, they are not aluminized. I am guessing more clones get tossed cause of cheapo crappo externals like muffler and rope starter than for actual internal wear. From what I have seen the internals if maintenance is done, tend to hold up very well.